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Will same-sex marriage be lawful? Someday
Published Tuesday, December 2, 2008
As a journalist, I can look at issues with the perspective of a political scientist. I have been consuming a large swath of news for about 15 years. I have met and interviewed thousands of people, from famous politicians to unsung, hard-working farmers. I have discovered intimately how civics and politics work in various parts of the country. And I read a lot of American history.
I have been able to look at all these experiences through the lenses of a simple Iowa kid who grew up with a Rural Route 3 address, served his country in the Army and then attended a land-grant university, which is where my journalism trek began.
Therefore, I can look you straight in the eye and tell you this: Even though same-sex marriage took a beating at the ballot box on Nov. 4, there will come a day when same-sex marriage will be allowed in every state in America.
How do I know this?
Just look at the past. America expands the rights it gives to its people, but fights for rights seem to take two steps forward and one step back. Nov. 4 was an example of one step back on the issue of same-sex marriage.
Tim Engstrom
Let’s look at an example. Many people know little about the fight for men’s suffrage.
At the country’s founding, most rights, such as the right to vote, once belonged mostly to land-owning white males. This left 85 percent of the American population without the right to vote or a voice in politics for 60 years after the ratification of the Constitution. It took many political fights forward and back, even the jailing of politicians and people fighting for change, but the spark of liberty couldn’t be doused. The defeat of Andrew Jackson in 1824 for president, even though he won the popular vote, moved the country’s sentiment closer to expanding voting rights. When he won in 1828, he was considered the first president to be a man of the people. Still, the cause took many more years of political wrangling.
Through amendments to state constitutions or court rulings, eventually the property requirement was dropped. Some states had wealth requirements that were dropped. By about 1850, the right to vote was granted to all white men. With the post-Civil War Reconstruction amendments to the U.S. Constitution, the right to vote was granted to all men. If you want more on this issue, read about Rhode Island legislator Thomas Wilson Dorr.
The story of women’s suffrage is more well-known. Women struggled for the right to vote, with many political setbacks, but the right was granted with the passage of the 19th Amendment in 1920.
These two tidbits of history are merely the right to vote. Think of the battles for other rights. The Irish once were widely discriminated against. The Mormons were chased out of Illinois. The civil rights movement is still in our rearview mirror. Blacks, Jews, Catholics, immigrants, uneducated, veterans, disabled and other minority groups have all had to fight for rights to bring this country to where it is today.
Veterans, read about the Bonus Army Conflict of 1932. Cavalry and infantry soldiers charged on World War I veterans camped at the National Mall to the astonishment of onlookers. This was how America treated vets?
Interracial marriage was once illegal in many states. Richard Loving married Mildred Jeter in the District of Columbia, then returned home to Virginia. Loving was white, and Jeter was black. Talk about government in the bedroom. They were rousted from the bed one night by police, charged and later found guilty of miscegenation, a felony. Miscegenation is the mixing of races. The judge even wrote that God didn’t intend for the races to mix.
The case was appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, and in the 1967 ruling for Loving v. Virginia the court struck down their conviction, opening the door to interracial marriages.
Many of the men and women who today want to keep gay people from having the same rights as they do at the founding of this nation would not have been able to vote, let alone have access to many other rights.
I am not arguing in this column in favor of one side or the other in the issue of same-sex marriage. You can make up your own mind on the issue.
I am saying that by looking at American history from a political-science perspective, it is clear that right of same-sex couples to marry indeed will be granted someday. It could take 20 or 60 years, but it will happen. Opponents can’t stave it off forever.
When it does, churches won’t be forced to marry gay couples. They still will have religious freedom. But same-sex couples will be able to go to a courthouse and be granted full marital status by their state government.
Tribune Managing Editor Tim Engstrom’s column appears every Tuesday.
Comments
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 12:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It nice to see the truth in print for a change, instead of all the nonsense about trying to control other people. Mr. Engstrom is 100% correct, same sex marriage is here to stay and all the money, time and hate wasted on preventing it will be for naught. When I was a kid, I remember all the newspaper articles condemning mixed race marriage, how it was against the Bible, it was against nature, it would ruin the country, it would make the "sanctity" of marriage meaningless and on and on. There truly is nothing new under the sun.
Posted by demo1960 (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 3:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Talk to any person in their 20's or 30's. This is not an issue with them, so yes it will be legal at some point. What gets me is the people worried about the sacredness of marriage and how same-sex marriage will affect it. When I see how man/woman marriage can be considered sacred with the divorce rates and cheating on partners we now have then I will take that argument seriously. I believe that same-sex unions are probably more cherished than the "normal" marriages are. Used to be you were looked down upon for marrying someone outside your religion. Like a Catholic marrying a Lutheran. How ridiculous does that sound now. And when the bible gets thrown at you ask the person throwing it to open the bible and read about all the other sins that we commit everyday and how we are not to judge each other. Also have them show you the quoted about being gay and it is the Old Testament or the New Testament. The Bible was written by people, read by people, intepreted by people. Need I say more. Look into your heart and soul for the answers. That is where God is. Not standing at the pulpit every Sunday.
Those are just people also.
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 3:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Why don't we just legalize everything while we are at it. Right or wrong, someone can and will come up with some stupid reason for legalizing about anything you can think of. When do we stop the maddness and keep morality in check. Stop letting the tail wag the dog. Last I heard is that the majority rules, not the minority. Quit being so touchy feely about so many far fetched ideals in this country. Pretty soon it will be legal to marry your pet. We have to eventually draw a hard line at one point and upset a certain minority group with a decision that doesn't go their way. So what! Again, majority rules. I'm quite sure the majority consists of non supporters of gay marriages so let it come to a vote from the public, not the politicians.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 5:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"desertdog" that is a silly argument. We are talking about one thing only: consenting adult gay couples getting a marriage license at city hall--a legal contract between two people. This fear-based nonsense about it leading to grandmas marrying monkeys or cats marrying chairs is childish and ridiculous. Stop letting your personal fear of things you don't understand justify bigotry toward people who want nothing more than what you already have: the simple right to marry the person they fall in love with. Nothing special, just the same protections, priveleges and responsibilities that come with any legal marriage. What's wrong with that? How could it possibly hurt you?
By the way, it's not majority rules either. You are wrong. That would be mob rule, and it's not how a representative democracy works. If majority ruled, all we would have to do is convince the right number of people and suddenly slavery could be legal again. We could take away women's right to vote. The checks and balances of power in a representative democracy like ours exist to protect those who need it most--those being trampled by the majority--so that liberty and justice truly are for all as our great Constitution guarantees.
Posted by sunflower (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't know. I might like to marry my dog. He treats me better then many human beings do. He gives me unconditional love. Wouldn't that be great for a marriage?
Posted by harriet (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 6:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
marriage is a religous act a union between a woman a man and GOD!!!! The Christian Bible clearly states man with man woman with woman is a sin that GOD will not tolerate. I agree with DESERTDOG, gay people believe they were born that way so how long before the murderers,rapist, sexually perverted want laws that protect them because they were BORN AS THEY ARE. Can anyone imagine the girls from Good Sams claiming they should not be punished because their behavior is the way they express their love for another!! People who have no understanding of the christian faith or other religions that believe in marriage have no right to marry.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 6:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"harriet" - I was born this way. What do you know about it? When was the moment in your life you chose not to be gay? How could you possibly believe I would choose to be gay when it means a lifetime of poor treatment from mean people like you? I was teased mercilessly in high school for being gay. You think I chose that?? I think you believing I chose to be gay lets you sit comfortably in your smugness while you treat gay people like garbage. You should be ashamed of yourself. I think Jesus would certainly be ashamed of your behavior and attitude.
The marriage you describe is religious marriage in your church. But God does not hand out marriage certificates at city hall when people pay the fee. Our civic government does, even to atheists who have no belief in God. Explain that smarty pants: if the only meaning to marriage is religious then why do we let atheists get married? Sweetie, the sooner you can comprehend that a religious ceremony or marriage and a civil contract of marriage are two different things, the better off we'll all be.
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 7 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I pretty much figured that I would get that response. My beliefs are my beliefs. Basically in a nut shell, if you dont have the right equipment to procreate as a person is designed to, then it is wrong in my book. Thats the one I live by no matter what anyone else says. Also, quit saying that people that don't support gays are all afraid or homophobs. That is really getting old. Come up with something a little better.
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 7:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
sunflower says:
"I don't know. I might like to marry my dog. He treats me better then many human beings do. He gives me unconditional love. Wouldn't that be great for a marriage?'
If you can get your dog to show informed consent in front of a judge then have at. In the mean time, try not to look so foolish.
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 7:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
" Basically in a nut shell, if you dont have the right equipment to procreate as a person is designed to, then it is wrong in my book'
So we should eliminate marriage for anyone who cannot procreate? You can believe whatever you like, you just cannot shove your beliefs down everyone's throat.
Posted by sunflower (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 8:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
MikeNYC - Actually I made my point. It was supposed to be a foolish comment. We get a little carried away with fear speculating what could or would happen if same sex couples are allowed to marry. Decisions based on fear are not good decisions. By the way I don't care if I look foolish.
Posted by Truthbetold (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 8:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What does it cost to allow gay marriage? Millions of dollars in health benefits - Private businesses will spend up to $35 million a year on the proposed partnerships, the government estimated. Additionally, the cost to the government in 2010 will be some $133 million, and in 2050 around $425 million.
The debate over same-sex "marriage" in recent weeks has focused mostly on fairness and rights. But the cost to employers and the government -- both federal and state -- is another element to the debate that is sometimes overlooked.
Conservatives opposed to same-sex "marriage" already have moral objections. The financial issue only compounds the problem. Christian business owners with moral objections to homosexuality will face a dilemma. Will they extend the spousal benefits, such as health insurance, to homosexual couples that are "married"? Or will they refuse to do so and face a lawsuit? These are not easy decisions.
These days it's not "politically correct" to say that homosexuality is wrong. But it's not culture's responsibility to determine right and wrong. There is only one Authority who can do that, and it is up to us to stand behind His Word.
Posted by Virginian (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 8:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Can I say something about this? I'll be right back, my wife wants me for some reason, let me go check.
Posted by Virginian (anonymous) on December 2, 2008 at 8:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Mr. Engstrom said the following "As a journalist, I can look at issues with the perspective of a political scientist. I have been consuming a large swath of news for about 15 years."
Havn't we all been doing the same thing????? You have to remember one thing about the "news", it's very liberal.
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 9:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey mikenyc
I'm expressing myself and I have the constitutional right to do so. I can't help that everyone doesn't agree. I don't see how I'm shoving anything down your throat. If you don't like it, don't read it. Not everyone has to agree on every issue. So, get off your high horse and respect the opinions of others. Any group of people can think they are in the right with any issue, but that doesn't make their way of thinking right.
Posted by truthshallprevail (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 9:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Heterosexual marriage has been assaulted by divorce, lifestyle, media, law, politics and customs, undermining its very essence. Of course, the attack also necessarily took its toll on the family as well. Pitirim A. Sorokin, founder of the department of sociology at Harvard University, argued that heterosexual marriage is the foundation of civilization itself. Unless heterosexual marriage is protected by law, custom and habit to the exclusion of every other arrangement, civilization is impossible. Sorokin made this point more than 50 years ago. Even from such a distance, he saw this age of perversity arising, and he argued that this age of rebellion would destroy civilization. The great question of our day is this: Will this civilization wake up once marriage is clearly understood to be the critical background and the primary target of attack? Can civilization survive under these circumstances? I would have to argue that it cannot. There is no example in the history of humankind of a civilization enduring for long when an age of polymorphous perversity is set loose.
Posted by truthshallprevail (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 9:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
philly,
You have a few errors in your last post. First of all, God did not create people gay. We have gayness in the world, just like we have tornados, hurricanes, cancer and heart disease. God didn't create these things. They are in the world, because we are a fallen world and sin brought that unto ourselves. Your other misstatement is at the end... "Gays, Lesbians, God bless them!" God can't possibly bless them, because He says it is wrong. He can't say one thing and believe another... like we mere humans. God is truth! And if he says it's wrong, it's wrong - no matter what you and I may believe. You are correct in saying that people are hypocrits. I know lots of church people that are as well as non-church people. According to God, we are to love our neighbor as ourselves... that includes gays and lesbians. HOWEVER, and this is a BIG however... we are to love the sinners and hate the sin. And according the Lord, God Almighty... homosexuality is a sin. So we need to love these people, BUT we are supposed to help them see the errors of their ways and help them change (and yes they can change - many of done so through proper counseling and of course wanting to make the change). We are supposed to do this with homosexuals, just like alcoholics, sex addicts or any other sin you can imagine. We are all sinners and all that God asks is that we follow Him and seek His ways, not ours.
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 9:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Another thing mikenyc
Did you ever go to sex ed in school? I don't remember the part where 2 men or women ever came into play with the mechanics of procreation. It is physically impossible. Apparently, our physical make-up determines how things work. Square peg-square hole. You cant argue about anyone that cant procreate shouldn't marry because those with the proper equipment that have medical problems preventing what is normal has no comparison to the opposite. I'm sure you knew exactly what I was saying but you just had to argue to try and make a point that doesn't exsist.
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
DEMO1960
It is a proven fact that gay men have more multiple relationships than married men do. They are more likely to stray than any one else. I'm quite sure that recieving a piece of paper from a judge will not decrease those numbers. So yes, there will be a very high rate of divorce among gay/lesbian partners. So lets not try to make one look bad so the other looks better. Old trick, doesn't work!
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 10:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
amaciej
Thats funny, how do we vote on things? he who has the least votes wins? DAH I'm so confused.
Posted by MomOf4 (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 11:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Impressive article - Limited intellectual capacity and fear prevents people from understanding and accepting our Nation's credo of Equality and Freedom. You have tried to illustrate some of these points and how we as a nation have grown, matured, working to embrace the values this nation was founded upon. Well-done. Bigotry always manifests in the belittling of Democracy and American values. If marriage is the provenance of religion then we MUST see to it that every marriage license issued via government is revoked in order to maintain the sanctity of that religious status because you see, this nation was founded upon the American value of separation of church and state - Hanging on to our state issued marriage licenses is an assault on god and religion. Marriage licenses are unAmerican and unPatriotic. You cannot seal church and state together unless of course you live in a religious country such as Iran. I am religious and I love this nation, I love it enough to honor it's values, that we are all created equal, not just sometimes, not just some of us, but All of us, all the time. Those who oppose equality, such as the posters on this board, are the very same as those that sat at the Whites Only lunch counters, the same as those who opposed women the right to vote. If you lack the capacity to wrap your head and heart around being a true American Patriot then please, pack your bags and move to a nation ruled by religion, I suggest Iran because the terrorism born from the bigotry shared on this comment board mirrors theirs: Desire for Religious Government, hatred of those that don't believe in the same god, hatred of those that question god, the use of god to oppress others, hatred of anyone who isn't exactly like you.
Posted by truthshallprevail (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 12:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Here ya go philly....
There are those who like to say that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Various verses are cited (out of context) and the verses that people use to show that homosexuality is wrong are explained away. The world wants to change God's words and meanings into something more suitable to its sinful desires. Nevertheless, the truth stands: The Bible condemns homosexuality as a sin. Let's look at what it says.
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible. It goes against the created order of God. He created Adam and then made a woman. This is what God has ordained and it is what is right. Unlike other sins, homosexuality has a severe judgment administered by God Himself. This judgment is simple: They are given over to their passions. That means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins (Romans 1:18ff). As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing. Without an awareness of their sinfulness, there will be no repentance and trusting in Jesus. Without Jesus, they will have no forgiveness. Without forgiveness, there is no salvation.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
truthshallprevail, I think your "male/female marriage is the bedrock of everything" argument is convenient for you to believe, but misguided. Isn't it more accurate to say that stable, nurturing homes for successive generations are the bedrock? If two males or two females provide that, what's the problem? Conversely, if a male/female couple provides a neglectful, abusive, horrible home then even though they are male/female they are not doing their job as parents.
Also, God created me exactly as I am and I've never known a bit of attraction to the opposite sex. Who are you to speak for God and say that He made a mistake with me or that somehow I turned His creation into a mistake? What arrogance you have to speak for God. I suspect you base such statements on your personal beliefs. You are certainly entitled to such beliefs, but your beliefs have no place dictating my civil liberties. I would never try to dictate who you can marry based on my beliefs. What is wrong with you that you feel compelled to make others conform to what you believe? Again, arrogance.
You are convinced that homosexuality is a sin, even when that belief flies in the face of common sense. I'd suggest you watch a documentary called "For The Bible Tells Me So." Many prominent religious authorities are included. If your beliefs are as correct as you think they will stand up to the questions posed in that film.
But I suspect you will never watch it. Rather, you will continue to sit on the sidelines and judge people and speak for God and feel self righteous. That's a pity.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 1:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For those who have religious-based issues with homosexuality, how do you feel about sex-less gay relationships? As with straight couples, sex is not the main component of committed homosexual relationships. Love is. So if a gay couple does not have sex (I know some that don't, especially ones that have been together for a longer time) do your issues melt away? Or do you still insist on making their relationship your business?
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 1:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
MomOf4 - amen to you! Well said.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 1:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
truthshallprevail, since you follow the Bible so literally, I assume you also throw stones at menstruating women who attend church (Lev. 15), abstain from trimming your hair (Lev. 19) advocate death to all who work on Sundays (Exodus 35), encourage parents selling their daughters into slavery (Exodus 21), refrain from eating shellfish (Lev. 11) or wearing cotton blend fabrics, or eating pork, etc. etc. etc.
Know what I think? I think you pull out that same handful of Bible verses, written 2,000 years ago in the context of the day and translated multiple times over the centuries, as the lynch pin to your bigoted attitude because then you don't have to use your common sense to interpret the spirit of God's Word.
You would rather be a robot of your church than actually take to heart the spirit of God's Word and use your own God-given good judgment to apply it to life around you. I think that's sad.
Jesus himself never mentioned homosexuality once. Not even once. If it was such a big deal to God, don't you think he might have mentioned it?
But go ahead, keep on believing the same simplistic all or nothing monotony you always have. You can be a robot of God if you want. Evidently that's all you are capable of. I'd rather have Him alive in my soul where He can help me make the world a better place.
Posted by Disgusted (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 1:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't care if some guy goes out in the woods and makes mad love to a bull moose as long as the moose is willing. I just don't want the guy to tell me about it. I firmly believe that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry, given a license, or be referred to as a minority. Individuals who participate in this type of lifestyle are not deserving of any special consideration. I do believe that they should be left alone and be given the full protection of the laws that protect all americans.
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 1:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Apparently, there are alot of people out there, even in "Pro gay/lesbian areas" ,like California, that are not even close to being ready to accept the thought of same sex marriages. The last attempt to legalize it failed suprisingly miserably. So, that must mean that people becoming less afraid to speak up against it and support traditional American values and morals and are tired of a special interest group pushing their interests and morals on the masses by beating this to death. Keep your alternative lifestyle to yourself and stay out of the masses business. We can't keep using our resources and court systems to try and pacify anyone that doesn't fit the mold.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 1:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
desertdog, you wrote, "It is a proven fact that gay men have more multiple relationships than married men do." Let's assume for a minute that that's true, even though you cite no source. Don't you think a primary reason for anyone's promiscuity might be no committed relationship? Society cries that gay people have too much casual sex, but when gay people embrace the ideal of settling into committed partnerships that same society won't let them.
That is just plain stupid.
Your post implies that gay people are more promiscuous and always will be whether they are married or not. On what do you base such an absurd belief? Please cite one or more credible sources of fact which lead you to that conclusion.
Think about it: among straight men, those who are married probably have far fewer sexual partners than straight men who are single, right? Give me one reason why that should be any different in gay men. Again, base it on fact not just your assumption.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 2:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
desertdog (aka Miss Majority Rules) - so are you telling me that you believe if enough people vote to bring back slavery it shall be so?
Simple yes or no question, do you believe that or not?
That's the problem with people like you. Your mind is unable to grasp anything that's not completely black & white, nice and simple, all or nothing, so you make poor judgments and child-like statements because you're unable to grasp the complexity that is all around us.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 2:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Disgusted - geez, you are a piece of work. You want me to be left alone and also protected equally under the law, but at the same time you want me to be denied a civil marriage license to form a family when I fall in love?
Don't you see how contradictory that is?
Why don't you want gay people referred to as a minority...why not?? Gay people are a minority. Of every 100 people born somewhere between 3 and 10 of them are going to be gay. That's a minority.
Being gay is not a "lifestyle." Is being heterosexual your chosen "lifestyle"? I would never choose this! It stinks because it has caused me grief all my life.
The only choice I have ever had is to either accept the truth and live by it, or lie to myself and everyone else and marry someone I do not love and have no attraction toward.
People who live openly gay should be commended for their honesty, especially when people like you make it much more convenient to lie.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 2:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
desertdog, that last post of your was breathtakingly shortsighted. You have no idea what you're talking about. I hope you someday know what it's like to be treated this way for something you have no control over, something that's simply a part of who you are. It's really despicable. And un-American.
What makes me a "special interest group" for demanding what I would have if I had been born straight?
You have convinced yourself that I've made some crazy choice you don't agree with or understand, and you refuse to treat me like an equal person because of it. You are wrong. Plain and simple. History will show you to be exactly what you are: an undereducated bigot who had a choice and did the wrong thing. I feel sorry for you.
But my pity for you won't stop me. Gay people are going to keep pushing until we are treated equally in the country that guarantees us such in the Constitution. You might not like or understand gay people, but fortunately equality is guaranteed to all not just the ones you personally approve of.
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 3:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Personally, I'm very glad that I'm not in touch with those types of feelings and I'm very glad that I don't understand them. Thats because I don't spend my valuable time worrying about how you feel and trying to change you as a person. You can feel any way you want, just don't demand special priveledges for something that most don't support. Apparently, you weren't born straight and that is the issue. You don't qualify to be married in most of the country. I will never accept that being gay is normal and you can't morally or scientifcally prove that it is. Once again, take a refresher course in sex ed and tell me how the body was intended to be used. Anything beyond that is not normal and should be treated as such and not pacified. Quit comparing other situations to being gay because there are none. Grasping at straws.
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 3:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
According to the bible, God created adam and eve. Not adam and adam. Get over yourself and quit trying to convince yourself that being gay is normal or ok. Your the one lying to yourself.
Posted by truthshallprevail (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 3:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
amaciej,
I'm sorry you don't believe in the Bible and that God is a GOOD God! You can't pick and choose which verses you want to believe. It's all or nothing. I feel sorry for you that you have to pick on others to make yourself feel ok about being gay. The translations I read are as close to original as possible. There's no sense arguing over it, because you will not listen. That's fine. I still love you!
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 4:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
desertdog, I ask you, again, what am I asking for that is "special priveleges"? I am asking for absolutely nothing that a)you don't already have, and b)I would have had I been born straight. What am I asking for that's special??
Also, I'm perfectly aware that homosexual sex does not procreate. I never said that it did. I'm not that shallow or stupid. You are the one insisting that because I can't procreate with the person I marry I therefore can't marry. That is just dumb. If procreation OR religion were a prerequisite for legal marriage I would sit down and shut up. They aren't. So it is you who should sit down and shut up.
Besides, a family can also be a family without children or with children who are adopted or via surrogacy or in vitro fertilization.
You don't have to understand any of this, but once again your personal views have kept people like me from equality, living shamefully in the closet, for long enough. Those days are over, pal.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
truthshallprevail, it is YOU who are picking and choosing verses. I asked you a question. Do you follow all those other Bible verses too? Why won't you answer me?
Posted by Truthbetold (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 6:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I believe truthshallprevail said it wasn't worth arguing! I agree with him. Ask your pastor which verses were eliminated with Jesus' first coming and which are still in effect today... maybe he can enlighten you.
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 9:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
NO, i will not sit down and shut up. I will always stick up for what I believe in and that is that you have a law that must be followed that does not allow same sex mariage. simple as that. Keep what you do in your home to yourself and we will all get along fine. Quit throwing a temper tantrum when someone won't let you have your way. Grow up. step outside your little box and look at the situation from the majorities eyes and ask yourself how ridiculous all this seems to them instead of looking at it from a gay persons veiw. not to pretty. You know it is wrong but you can't help yourself from indulging. I'm defineately not the one with a problem here. adam and eve not adam adam
Posted by harriet (anonymous) on December 3, 2008 at 10:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
amaciej: this country was setteled by a group of people that were very very religiously strick. Good thing you were not born into those times. I think this country should leave the constitution alone. Does anyone know if any other countries allow same sex marriage?
Posted by Disgusted (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 6:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Amaciej - Not wanting a group of citizens to be harmed is far from wanting them to get married. Many years ago they used to call it "Queer Bashing" when a bunch of punks used to go looking for you. I did not condone that. I can not condone your marriage, adoption, physical violence in California, etc. either.
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 9:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey desertdog, you can have any opinion you want no matter how stupid, you just can't force others to accept it.
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 9:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Did you ever go to sex ed in school? I don't remember the part where 2 men or women ever came into play with the mechanics of procreation. It is physically impossible."
Sorry to burst your bubble but same sex couples have sex all the time and it seems to work pretty well for them. Possibly you need a refresher in the sex ed department. LOL
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 9:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
" First of all, God did not create people gay"
You have to be amused at those who think they can speak for God. LOL
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 9:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"marriage is a religous act a union between a woman a man and GOD!!!!"
Nope, in this country it is a civil contract between two people. Religion has nothing to do with it unless the people desire it. You cannot get married without state permission known as a license, no religion is required.
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 9:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"There are those who like to say that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality."
It doesn't. It calls specific sex acts unclean for religious purposes. There is no mention of homosexuality or same sex marriage in the Bible.
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 9:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"You know it is wrong but you can't help yourself from indulging."
desertdog, You obviously have some personal issues with homosexualtiy. You should get some help for them.
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 9:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"It is a proven fact that gay men have more multiple relationships than married men do. "
Then you'll be able to post the "proof". We'll all be waiting.
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 9:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible."
No the Bible doesn't condmen homosexuality and those who claim is does are lying which is blasphemy.
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 10:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"According to the bible, God created adam and eve. "
First of all the story of Adam and Eve is an allegory
Second, I believe that God created everyone.
Third, what does this have to do with same sex marriage?
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 10:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Obviously, the only ones posting in oposition to my opinions are those that have high stakes at risk if they don't get there way. I layed my trap and you have stepped right into it. You are the ones that want change and the burden of proof that it betters all and and not just a few confused individuals, rests with you. Unfortuneately, the politicians usually are the ones that make these decisions. Based solely on voting power. As long as there is an overwhelming number of voters that are opposed to the idea, they won't touch it with a 500' pole. They will lose alot more votes than they would gain. Federal and state. The biggest reason the issue exsists, as far as my "blind eye" can see, is that number 1-gay /lesbian people want to be able to become a normal accepted part of life, just like baseball and applepie, with or without a piece of paper, that will not happen because it will be the will of a few not most 2- its a cash cow for a group of people to exploit by getting through on technicalities and loop holes that weren't foreseen by our fore fathers.
Also, don't start talking about the abilities of gay people intimately invovled. Alot of bloggers will have to go out and get new keyboards because they are now full of vomit!
We all know what you do, you don't have to spell it out for us normal folks
desert dog out!
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 10:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Harriet, currently legal marriage is available to gay couples in six countries: the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Canada, South Africa, and Norway. Yes, Canada too. Our wonderful neighbor to the north gives full equality to gay couples, and they are not falling into decay because of it.
Yes, good thing I wasn't born back then. I would probably have married a woman I never loved, been miserable, taken my misery out on my wife and children, and a miserable life based on lies would have been had by all. Inexplicably, that is what some people still want gay people to do: stay in the closet and produce miserable families built on a foundation of lies and deceit.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 10:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
desertdog, wow you sound just like a pouty child when you get huffy.
You are just plain wrong, and someday history will show it.
I ask you again, what could possibly be the harm if gay couples get legal marriage licenses? It has nothing whatsoever to do, yet you insist on making it your business. Geez, get over your ego, pal.
Legal marriage is a separate thing from your precious personal definition of the sacred religious union. Why is that so hard for you to understand? It's not that complicated.
And for the umpteenth time, what the majority wants is not automatically right, or legal, or fair. I demonstrated this clearly by pointing out that even if a majority wanted slavery back and disapproved of non-white racial minorities having equal rights, it would be nonetheless wrong. It would be unconstitutional, unfair, and wrong.
Read back through these posts. Each time I call out one of your false statements or illogical arguments you ignore what I say. Is it because deep down you know I'm right?
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 11:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
desertdog - the only thing I know to be wrong here is: heterosexual couples having their committed status sanctioned by government (resulting in certain rights, protections, and priveleges) while homosexual couples are barred from it. Nothing to do with religion here. Legal marriage licenses only. That is wrong. Doesn't matter what the majority thinks. Doesn't matter about the way it has always been. It is wrong. And it's time we fix that.
I think I just realized what's going on here. Are you gay? I was asking myself why on earth you'd think gay people "can't help <ourselves> from indulging" (which makes no sense to me) and suddenly I figured it out: you probably have all this hostility because you consider homosexual sex some great temptation that the wicked enjoy and the righteous deny. But why would you consider it a temptation unless you're gay and feel "tempted" yourself? If you are, say so and we can get you connected to some support resources so you don't have to deal with it by lashing out at other gay people out of some hatred you feel for yourself.
If that's not it then I can't figure out what you're talking about. Gay people aren't "indulging" in anything. They are just being themselves, being honest, living honestly.
Posted by Truthbetold (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
MikeNYC says, First of all the story of Adam and Eve is an allegory
Second, I believe that God created everyone.
Third, what does this have to do with same sex marriage?
I'm sorry you believe it is an allegory... if it is in the Bible, it is the Truth... because all Scriptures are "God-breathed". Adam and Eve is not just some nice story, it is how God began mankind.
You are correct that God creates everyone... and He doesn't make any junk. That's very true. But that doesn't mean we don't disobey and do what we want to do... even if it is against His will.
And what does Adam and Eve have to do with same sex marriage? Everything! When God created them - both male and female, He called it "very good". It was His best creation. It's only because they sinned that homosexuality and beastiality and all the other sins... gossip, lust, gluttony (and millions of other sins) came about. It's unfortunate, but it happened. If there never had been sin, we would have couples (all heterosexual), in loving and caring relationships... no problems, no divorces, no murders, no abortions... no sins!
If you need some help understanding this, go to a Bible believing pastor or priest. Most churches in town have one or more of these. Some churches in town don't. Some don't believe in the Bible any longer... sad but true and that's the way society is going and why our country and world is in such moral decay. We've forgotten the Golden Rule and the 10 Commandments and the God of the Universe. It's now all about ME, MYSELF and I! Truth is relative and it's not. Truth is God and God is Truth! You cannot change God or Truth.
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
truthshallprevail and Truthbetold, both of you have a very specific strong religious belief. That's great for you. But you also both dismiss anyone who believes differently. That is pathetic. I also find it contrary to God's teachings. And contrary to what America stands for.
Such attitudes are often taken up by people who cannot or do not think for themselves. They get downright vicious toward anyone who holds beliefs or lives their lives in a way contrary to their own. Vicious and judgmental and smug.
I am 100% happy to allow you to believe anything you want, and live your life any way you see fit (as long as it doesn't hurt others). Why on earth can't you give me the same simple consideration? I don't understand that.
My life is in perfect harmony with myself, my family, my church, God, my fiance, my employer, and my community. All of it is humming along beautifully.
Tell me please: why must YOU insist on coming along and restricting my civil liberties based on YOUR religious beliefs? I would never do that to you. And I would fight for you if someone else was doing that to you.
Truthbetold, you condemn today being all about "me, myself and I" yet it is you, yourself, and you who is sticking your nose in my business by trying to keep me from a legal marriage license with the person I love and have committed the rest of my life to. Look in the mirror. What you condemn is exactly what you are doing yourself, and you are too blind to see it.
I think God wants us to celebrate the love in the world, to nurture it and share it and pass it on, not judge whose is worthy of our personal stamp of approval and whose isn't. My pastor agrees with me and my church welcomes me.
If you disagree I'd say you are the one with the problem, not me.
Posted by desertdog (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 1:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think you made him cry. You should appoligize
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"desert dog out!"
Yes we realize you are "out" of your mind. Same sex marriage is here to stay and all your little hissy fits won't changed the facts. So why don't you just deal with your own homosexual issues and give it a rest?
Posted by MikeNYC (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 1:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"I'm sorry you believe it is an allegory"
And I'm sorry that you have been misled into misinterpretations of the scriptures by some degenerate cult. Homosexuality is not a sin, God does not hate homosexuals and Adam and Eve is an allegory like many of the stories in Genesis. Sadly, you are missing the entire point of the scripture by not understanding them. However, until you do actually learn about God and Bible, I find it personally offensive as a Christian to have my faith lied about for someone's evil agenda of hate, so stop it.
Posted by Truthbetold (anonymous) on December 4, 2008 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Can't argue with you guys anymore... you have your own "truth" and it doesn't matter what God says. That's unfortunate, but that's between you and God. Peace, out!!!!
Posted by amaciej (anonymous) on December 5, 2008 at 11:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Truthbetold: I think you can't talk about it anymore because your "arguments" don't hold water and you know it.
And you're not a big enough person to admit you are wrong. You can't admit it to yourself or to the people you've wronged.
Several times now your arguments have been deflated with simple, clear logic. Yet you refuse to acknowledge it.
You speak for God (which I find blasphemous and extreme), and in your mind reason doesn't even matter. Why did God endow you with a brain if He doesn't want you to use it? Why have the precious gifts of reason, compassion, and understanding if we don't take them out for a spin once in a while? Not just when it's easy but even more importantly when it's difficult.
You selectively use Bible verses as a weapon against gay people, then accuse others of doing that very thing. Leviticus is the most commonly used weapon against gays yet you dismiss myriad other parts of Leviticus and see no hypocrisy or contradiction in doing so.
It's a tragedy that some people in this world use the beauty of faith as a means of selectively treating innocent fellow human beings with cruel, deliberate scorn. I'd expect it in a place like Iran, but to have that be so rampant in our dear America is very disheartening.
Posted by e__bow (anonymous) on December 8, 2008 at 7:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"step outside your little box and look at the situation from the majorities eyes and ask yourself how ridiculous all this seems to them instead of looking at it from a gay persons veiw."
i wasn't going to butt in until i read this comment from desertdog. this is possibly the most arrogant thing i have ever read.
how DIFFICULT it is for all of us in the majority, i know. i for one have a very hard time; i just wish the gays would for once look at it from the MAJORITY'S point of view instead of thinking only about themselves. then they would see how ridiculous it is - i know exactly what you mean! being in the majority is soooo rough, i just wish these gays would stop pestering us with their ridiculous quest for equality; it's really annoying and unfair that they waste our time with it! just like women and blacks before them; man were they ever pests! i'm so glad that society never changes.. i don't know what i would do if women and blacks had rights; what a world that would be - imagine!
... you pompous little person. i feel so sorry for you: you call yourself a christian and yet you are so discriminatory! try not to be so concerned with what's different and look inside your heart. i know that god created you with better intentions than what you're demonstrating right now. life is too short to have so much anger, man. let it go, live and let live and stop worrying about things that frankly have nothing to do with you. my god celebrates love, not hate. maybe you should get on board.
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