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Editorial: Hold the line on fees, make the cuts
Published Thursday, October 30, 2008
As city, county, school, state and other government officials gather this fall to talk about budgets, they should think about the hard times people are in. Then they should consider what forms of governmental revenue are regressive and which forms of revenue are progressive.
There is a big push to hold the line on property taxes. This push is led by Gov. Tim Pawlenty, but it has carried down to local levels, too. However, property taxes are one of the most progressive taxes. The higher the value of your property, the more tax you pay. The rich pay more than the poor.
We aren’t crazy about higher property taxes, either, but we’d rather see them than more fees. Mostly, we’d prefer to see a reduction in staff or services as the tight economic times call for it.
Even so, in an effort to halt increases in property taxes, many officials want to increase fees for services, rather than making cuts. Fees, however, are regressive. No matter how rich or poor you are, you pay the same. It’s harder on the poor person to come up with the amount than the rich person.
For instance, let’s use the Albert Lea Senior Center. City officials will need to decide whether to boost the amount the city pays for the Senior Center or whether to increase fees on the members. The amount the city pays, of course, comes from the city’s property tax revenue.
The Senior Center is not meant to be a self-sufficient operation. It is one of the amenities to a decent quality of life in Albert Lea, a reason to reside here. Raising fees only will hurt less-fortunate senior citizens. Raising property taxes spreads the cost among all Albert Lea residents. Cutting city staff is the other option. Avoid the fee hike.
The same goes for amenities such as the city pool, the public library, the municipal airport, the transfer station and so forth. Albert Lea residents would rather pay for these through taxes than through fees.
Some argue only the users should have to pay, but should only people who have fires have to pay for the fire department? Should only people who drive have to pay for streets? Let’s be a progressive, pragmatic city, but keep a sharp eye on the size of government.
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Comments
Posted by scurvydog (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 9:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hold off on making any comments until I finish making some popcorn. I have a feeling this thread is going to be pretty good.
Posted by jeshuaerickson (Jeshua Erickson) on October 30, 2008 at 9:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Actually, property taxes are often considered regressive. When someone lives in an expensive home, it doesn't necessarily mean they have a high income. The home could be paid off and the person living in that home could be living on a fixed income. If that person's property tax goes up, it eats up a larger percentage of their income than if that person had a large income and an inexpensive house.
Here's an article that explains further: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0...
I'm guessing property taxes turn out to be especially regressive in Albert Lea because there are so many people who are retired, have limited income, and have paid for a house that they wouldn't be able to afford with their current income.
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 10:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Why make an arguement for taxes or fees. When it comes to taxes you will get any number of ideas. The problem is we have bought into the idea that a government's job is to provide all services to everyone. We can all agree that there are some basic services that we all benefit from. Fire, police and yes even roads but other things we have put in have only a small benefit for a few. In order to have small government and fair taxation we must give up the idea that the role of government is to provide for us. Most things other that those that benfit all (see above) should be view as extras and cut. There was a time when America and Americans did for themselves it was only 70 short years ago.
Now I know most of you will attack this post and say that these services are for the public good and you will justify them that is your right but know it all cost you wether it be higher taxes or fees. Don't forget the city just add a huge cost to the tax base with it's new housing ordinance. It cost a lot to enforce stupid laws.
Posted by time2share (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 10:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Albert Lea residents would rather pay for these through taxes than through fees". I disagree with this statement. I can only speak for myself, however, but I guess if I had a choice I'd rather pay more for a Senior Citizen membership or for a trip to the pool or library. If I couldn't afford to go then, maybe I'd have to make that choice. As for the airport, maybe it should be privately owned so the city doesn't have to pay for its upkeep, etc. the same could be true of the Senior Citizens Center and the library...By the way, are they funded by the city of Albert Lea or the county?
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree with time. I always like a choice on what I spend my money on. If enough people feel it is worth while than they will pay the fee. As for the airport if you have a plane out there than you pay for it. It has no benfit to all like roads, fire or cops. My 2 cents.
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 10:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This statement is false "However, property taxes are one of the most progressive taxes. The higher the value of your property, the more tax you pay. The rich pay more than the poor."
Reason why: Who determines the value of the property? The very organization who will tax it. Who has the ablity to add extra to this tax ever governmental orgainzation. The value of you home is very subjective and property taxes are more than just funding for the city. Look at your tax bill we are now paying for teachers to retire. Not very progressive.
I guess if you mean that these taxes a socialist idea (spread the wealth) than yea they are progressive other wise they hurt the poor and the fixed income way more that the rich.
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 11:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Another thing is the title is a little misleading. Should have said don't rasie fees RASIE TAXES.....
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 2:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Man this must be the year of the tax. Here in Minnesota and the nation every one is so ready to give more to the government. But when you word it so well why wouldn't everyone just give in to socialism?
Posted by controlledhyperness (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 2:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
NoDFL: why do you think Obama is doing as well as he is? He words things very well to hide the fact that he thinks socialistically.
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 2:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Very true heard today that if you make more than $150,000 you are now rich and he is going to tax you. Yea can't wait... and the tribune thinks fees are too high....
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Had to share this about taxes
http://www.newsmax.com/lowell_ponte/obam...
Posted by mrthunder (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 4:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
NOGFL. i agree on almost everything you say. AND FOR THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT A FIXED INCOME LIVES IN A EXPENSIVE HOME. WILL MOVE! THEN YOU CAN PAY YOUR TAXES. YOU ARE RIGHT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT OUR SELF'S. NOT THE GOVERNMENT FOR A HAND OUT. BUT LIKE THE FARMERS NOT THE FAMILY FARMER. WE ALL SAY GIVE ME GIVE ME. WHEN THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE SAYING GET IT FOR YOURSELF. AND DO FOR YOURSELF. OUR GOVERNMENT HAS GOTTEN WAY TO BIG.
WE NEED TO DOWN SIZE. AND GET RID OF THE IRS. HAVE ONE FIXED TAX RATE FOR EVERY ONE
Posted by hometownguy (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 5:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Exon Mobil had their largest quarterly profit ever, almost 15 billion dollars. Do they really need the Bush/McCain tax breaks? How about a tax break for the middle class, the people that need it?
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 5:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Hometownguy wondererd when you would get here and post your complaits against big oil. Did you see gas was 2.04 in Rochester would have been 1.98 without the state rasing our tax on it.
Next question how much of that was paid out in dividens or put back into the business to find more oil? Wonder how many people work for big oil? Wait jobs don't matter. Hold on wonder how many people have their stock as part of their retirement? I know if you work for the state, county, city, or school you own big oil so those profits went to your retirement. Better yet tax'em take it all and lets see what gas will cost us. Bet it will go lower. Yea right when pigs fly.
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 6:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Also who is middle class? Joe B says if you make more than 150,000 a year your rich so if you are a teacher at the top of the scale and your wife is a nurse with Mayo you just hit the rich. Wow how does it feel. Now god for bid if you started a small business in Albert Lea and it took off and you made 150,000 you are set way to go now hand it over to Obama or to the state or city. When 40% do not even pay taxes why should they get my money? It is not hard to hit that 150,000 mark. Also don't forget Bill Clinton promised a middle tax cut. How did that one work out for you. Oh I know it never happen that is how it worked out for you. If you think Obama is going to do this than I have some beach front property to sell ya in AZ.
Posted by scurvydog (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 6:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The "fixed income" mantra is tiring. Virtually everyone lives on a fixed income, because most of us can't grant ourselves a salary increase. Is it called "fixed income" because "lower income" or "limited income" isn't good for the self-esteem?
On that note - our county employees apparently DO NOT live on a fixed income, since they can (and do) grant themselves raises.
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 7:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
very true about the county.
Posted by hometownguy (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 8:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
NoDFL - You must run with a different crowd than I do since you say it is not hard to his the $150,000 mark. It all makes sense to me now.
Posted by hometownguy (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 8:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Make that "hit" the $150,000 mark.
Posted by hometownguy (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 8:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
NoDFL - What do you think about Sarah Palin's windfall profit tax on the oil companies in Alaska? I saw her quote that she wanted to spread the wealth to the people of Alaska. I think that makes her one of those socialist redistributionist. That can't be good for the people who work for big oil or those with retirement funds that have invested in oil.
Posted by mrthunder (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 8:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
WHY ARE WE CRYING ABOUT 150,000. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO MAKE THAT MUCH YOU CAN. BUT YOU HAVE TO WORK AT IT.
I HAVE MADE THAT MUCH AND IT WAS IN THE 90'S. HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THAT WOULD BE WORTH NOW. THE THING IS I DINT CRY AND WHINE. I WENT OUT AND MADE THE MONEY. YOU NEED TO SET GOALS. SO STOP WINNING ABOUT 150,000. WE ARE SHAFTED WHO EVER WINS
Posted by hometownguy (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 9:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
mrthuner- How is stating that most people I know don't make $150,00 crying or whining?
I think you should work here in Albert Lea as a job coach. You'd have thousands of people hiring you to show them the jobs in Albert Lea where they can earn $150,000 and still have time to take care of their families. As far as setting goals, I totally agree with you. It is something my parents taught me to do and I've tried to pass it along to my own kids.
Posted by NoDFL (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 9:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Alaska law every Alaskan citzen owns the oil no individual or company can own the oil. What she did was fix a corupt system and return to the people of Alaska what is their's. That is not socialism that is a free market.
I must run with a different crowd because myself and my friends are in this boat. I make the top of the teaching scale and my wife makes a living wage in the IT field. We live in a middle class area of town our house has a tax value of 140,000. I talk to my tax guy and he said it was time to hide money. He said under what they have been told Obama's tax will nail me. So I won't say I am sorry for working hard and making it to the top and why should you or anyone else get my hard earned money? We just see things from different worlds. In the end we will all pay poor, middle class, and rich.
Posted by mrthunder (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 9:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
HOME I HAVE WORKED IN ALBERT LEA. THE ONLY THINK I CAN SAY IS. START A BUSINESS FOR YOURSELF!!! I DID. I HAVE RUN 5 OF THEM 3 MADE MONEY 2 DID NOT . BUT I NEVER GAVE UP. THEN YOU CAN BE YOUR OWN BOSS. NO ONE TO BLAME BUT YOURSELF.
Posted by hometownguy (anonymous) on October 30, 2008 at 9:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
NoDFL - I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Posted by Disgusted (anonymous) on October 31, 2008 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Once you start questioning the fairness of taxes it is easy to come up with many instances where it doesn't seem logical for everyone to have to pay for certain services or institutions. You can start by looking around your neighborhood and find that family sizes vary from 0-8 children. You are all taxed the same amount for school support. You reach your middle 40's, you don't have any children in the public schools, and are paying college tuition for your children. You will still support the school system until you move or die. I would rather have my tax money used to educate the young than to finance a swimming pool. We elect people to city and county offices hoping they will make decisions that are fair to all. It is hard to do but at least they can try.
Posted by mmurtaugh (anonymous) on November 2, 2008 at 8:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's a quote from a recent Tribune editorial:
"Down to Mayor Randy Erdman.
Erdman told the Tribune he is frustrated with the situation this year with the green lakes. There has been much discussion about the lake treatment, but very few people have actually asked the council to treat the lake, he said.
“Nobody asked the powers that be, they all kind of went around and pointed fingers,” he said. “I find that kind of disheartening ... Everybody else is making a big issue about this, but they’re not asking the council to do it ... Everybody’s blaming the council but nobody’s asked the council.”
We would like to remind Erdman that nobody asks you to raise taxes every year and you seem to bring that up all right. Leaders need to lead. The lake is right outside city office windows — you might want to look. Also as a reminder, please plow the snow that will fall this winter. Thanks."
http://www.albertleatribune.com/news/200...
Mike Murtaugh
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