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Lutherans debate rules for clergy
Same-sex partners are part of discourse
Published Tuesday, August 18, 2009
MINNEAPOLIS — Leaders of the country’s largest Lutheran denomination prayed for unity Monday as they waded into a weeklong debate over homosexuality and the clergy, while a rule change that would allow people in same-sex relationships to serve cleared its first hurdle.
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is meeting this week in Minneapolis, is debating a proposal to allow individual congregations to hire gays and lesbians in committed relationships as clergy. A final vote is not expected until Friday.
But delegates on Monday rejected a move by critics of the proposal to require approval from a two-thirds supermajority instead of a simple majority when the measure comes to the final vote.
Supporters of the supermajority said a higher hurdle was needed to signal wide support for what they called a major change in the church’s approach to homosexuality. But the move received support from just 43 percent of the 1,045 voting delegates.
ELCA Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson said earlier in the day that the outcome of the majority versus supermajority vote shouldn’t be seen as strongly indicating the ultimate outcome of the debate.
The ELCA delegates gathered at the Minneapolis Convention Center also will consider a broader statement on human sexuality, a 34-page document that tries to establish a theological framework for differing views on homosexuality. Critics say it would simply liberalize the ELCA’s attitudes. A vote on that document is scheduled for Wednesday.
At 4.7 million members and about 10,000 congregations in the United States, the ELCA would be one of the largest U.S. Christian denominations yet to take a more gay-friendly stance on clergy.
In 2003, the 2 million-member Episcopal Church consecrated its first openly gay bishop, deepening a long-running rift over homosexuality in the worldwide Anglican Communion and leading to the formation of the more conservative Anglican Church in North America, which claims 100,000 members.
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Posted by Culture_Warrior (anonymous) on August 18, 2009 at 5:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
God, save your people.
Posted by Pierre (anonymous) on August 18, 2009 at 6:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Having followers that are empathetic, caring, sensitive and non judgemental makes me believe that yes, God has and is saving his people.
Posted by BabyGotBack (anonymous) on August 18, 2009 at 6:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You go Pierre!
Culture Warrior - really? If someone is gay or a church decides they want to have a gay pastor, how does that DIRECTLY impact you anyways?
You go Lutheran Church! Props to you for opening up and being accepting.
Posted by truthshallprevail (anonymous) on August 18, 2009 at 8:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Doesn't the Lutheran Church believe in God's Word - The Bible. God and The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin... how can a group of people, or a church decide to go against God? To do so is to reject The Bible and God... then there is no sense to have a church. Approving or voting for allowing gay clergy is not empathetic, caring, sensitive or non-judgmental... it is sin. Now don't get me wrong... we are to love the sinner and hate the sin. Some people get that wrong... but you can do both... God does and we are to do the same. God says if you are homosexual, you are to repent from your sin (just as we are from any sin) and walk away from it. Don't kid yourself by using nice sounding words that make you out to be politically correct. God doesn't go for politically correct... He goes for His own Word!
Posted by Pierre (anonymous) on August 18, 2009 at 9:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
God also says divorce is a sin and, other than an instance of adultry, should not take place. So tell me, why is that behavior not passionately condemned? Could it possibly be that the world is not quite the same world as it was thousands of years ago?
God says Thou Shall not kill...but some favor conflicts in which innocent people are killed. Some favor captial punishment. It's funny how certain sins seem to have more leverage to some believers than others.
If Politically correct means accepting those who are different, isn't that a Godly virtue? Judging people is Gods job. I dont want to take that job away from Him.
Posted by OldTrojan (anonymous) on August 18, 2009 at 9:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
truthshallprevail: What if the gay Pastor does not practice homosexuality or is celibate? Is it okay with God if he/she were to be a Pastor then? Is the sin of being gay worse than any other sin? I thought all sins were equally sinful. Is there one sin that is worse than another? Who do you know who never sins? Don't all people sin - even Pastors?
Posted by GodsWordisTruth (anonymous) on August 19, 2009 at 12:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I believe God’s Word is solid enough to stand by itself. It would behoove all of you to read it!
Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Romans 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Respectfully,
Rev. Stephen K. Hubbell
Lebanon, MO 65536
Posted by dynagirl (anonymous) on August 19, 2009 at 6:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Would a church hire a prostitute, murderer, adulterer, etc. to lead the church? The bible speaks about all of these sins. None is any better or worse than the other, and none of them represent the church or the congregation in a holy light. All of these people may have been redeemed and no longer a prostitute, etc., and may have alot to offer a church from experience but one cannot say the same about a gay pastor. The congregation could always assume their pastor is leaving the pulpit to go home and carry on with his homosexual lifestyle, no redemption required. The very thing the Lord speaks against. That seems like a HUGE conflict of interest to me!
Posted by Layne (anonymous) on August 19, 2009 at 7:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Fornicators and pediphiles are looked down on. What makes a gay sinner any better. Let's have openly, sexually aggresive pastors. I see no difference at all. admit it's wrong, repent (change your ways) to you who condone this! I have now removed myself, for a number of years, from the Lutheran Church, because abomination in the eyes of the Lord is wrong, no matter how man contorts, for his own use scripture. Society needs to conform to God's word, not him to us. His word is eternal! If you want true reading whithout contortion, be non-denominatioal. The bible says what it means and there is no excuse, for this breach of conduct! We all fall short. Keep your eyes on the Prize (price) of salvation and grace!
Posted by truthshallprevail (anonymous) on August 19, 2009 at 8:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Godswordistruth, dynagirl and Layne... you understand that God's Word is eternal, not something for people in the past, but it is for today! And you understand that there is no sin better or worse than any other and that we are to all turn away from sin... homosexuality or anything else. And people will always just believe what they want to believe to justify their sins... very unfortunate but true.
Somehow, someone emailed me because of my first blog on this article (which is scary that people are able to get our private info from the Tribune website) when none is given. What's up with that Albert Lea Tribune?????
Posted by truthshallprevail (anonymous) on August 19, 2009 at 8:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Godswordistruth, dynagirl and Layne... you understand that God's Word is eternal, not something for people in the past, but it is for today! And you understand that there is no sin better or worse than any other and that we are to all turn away from sin... homosexuality or anything else. And people will always just believe what they want to believe to justify their sins... very unfortunate but true.
Somehow, someone emailed me because of my first blog on this article (which is scary that people are able to get our private info from the Tribune website) when none is given. What's up with that Albert Lea Tribune?????
Posted by justthinking (anonymous) on August 19, 2009 at 9:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Freedman, how can you be old fashioned just because you believe and stand firm for the Word of God. The Word of God is for yesterday, today and tomorrow. It never changes. We live in a world that is changing, but God’s Word never changes. When our country was founded, it was founded with Christian principals. We had the Bible to base the laws of our nation around. Now we’ve invited and allowed foreigners into our country to live among us. These foreigners have different religious beliefs. It's coming to the place where we can no longer insist that our country use Christian principals to guide our laws because Christians are outnumbered. What we can do is insist that our “Christian” churches stand firm to the truth of the Bible. If we know that the church that we’re attending isn’t doing that, and God’s truth is important to us, it’s our duty to leave that church and put God’s Word first. No, Freedman, you aren’t old fashioned. Stand by your convictions and stay clear of churches that refuse to teach the Truth straight from the Bible. Leviticus 18:22 says that homosexuality is an abomination unto God.
Posted by BabyGotBack (anonymous) on August 19, 2009 at 10:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
feedman - You old-fashioned? NO WAY!
For all of you that are against this, I suggest you clean up your own houses first. I hope none of you ever swear (take the Lord's name in vain), work on a Sunday, commit adultery, etc. Oh - and if you are wearing clothes of mixed fibers? Shame on you. And men - if you are clean shaven? You are in sin as well according to the Bible.
And for you Catholics out there. If you think you don't have gay priests, think again. There are plenty. My husband went to a Catholic school and there were two priests who had an affair. It happens with all religions.
You don't like it? Don't be Lutheran. Problem solved.
But one more question. How does someone being gay impact you anyways? Is it a little too close to home for you? Why do you care? Ok - three questions - sorry.
Posted by chrish (anonymous) on August 19, 2009 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
justthinking:
Do you considers Jews "foreign"? Because we have lived here for a long time too! How do you classify Jews?
I am always amazed how people can be so arrogant in that their religion is right and no way can anyone else's be. Judaism came before Christianity. There is only one version of the Qu'ran. Buddhists have been around longer. Point being, it is one thing to believe your religion is right for you but to assume that everyone else is wrong and everyone else is a sinner is arrogant at best.
Posted by OldTrojan (anonymous) on August 19, 2009 at 2:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I just sent truthshallprevail a private message asking he/she to answer questions previously posed to them by me in this thread. I am hoping to get answers from this poster since I am apparently in the dark on gays serving as pastors and need enlightenment. Thank you!
Posted by astromc (anonymous) on August 19, 2009 at 8:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Several have asked, not only here but elsewhere "How does that impact you?", referring to the article on gay clergy. The fact is that over 60% of those with HIV/Aids are gay men. Their desease, not limited to being caused by sexual acts alone, can be transferred to the "straight" community in a variety of ways, including blood transfusions. The resulting HIV/Aids infection may not manifest itself for up to 10 years, and may not even show in tests for that long. In the meantime, the infected person may give blood that seemingly is not tainted, and passes all screens for HIV.
That same HIV blood may be injected in the form of a blood transfusion into me, my wife, my children, or my grandchildren, or yours, God forbid.
God's rules are not given to us by Him to control, but to protect us from such ravages as HIV/AIDS.
The sexual actions of gays DOES impact us in a terrbily negative way; that's why God said homosexuality is an abomination to Him. And when the clergy accepts homosexuality as simply another lifestyle, they are leading their sheep in the most damaging way possible.
Posted by chrish (anonymous) on August 20, 2009 at 1:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
While it is true that nearly half the reported AIDS cases can be traced back to male to male contact, your odds of getting AIDS through a blood transfusion are slim to none in this day and age.
Gay males are not the only ones with AIDS. We have drug users, prostitutes, and yes, straight people with it. If you don’t engage in the behavior that would lead to AIDS, you will be safe.
The group that has a very low occurance of AIDS are lesbians. I asked this on another post once – is it ok for women to be together? The Bible says something about men not lying down with other men but nothing about two women together. And since lesbians have a low rate of AIDS it must be ok right?
This reminds me of how leppers were treated in biblical times. What did Jesus do? He helped them. He hung out with them when no one else would. For those of you who are Christian, maybe you can take a page from his book.
Posted by harriet (anonymous) on August 20, 2009 at 3:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
are you posters aware that the very church where this confrence is being held in S.Minneapolis was hit by a tornado yesterday. The tents on the lawn were blown down and the steeple on the 100 yr. + church was knocked to the ground. I think my FATHER'S PISSESD OFF !!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by harriet (anonymous) on August 20, 2009 at 3:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
are you posters aware that the very church where this confrence is being held in S.Minneapolis was hit by a tornado yesterday. The tents on the lawn were blown down and the steeple on the 100 yr. + church was knocked to the ground. I think my FATHER'S PISSED OFF !!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Susan (anonymous) on August 20, 2009 at 11:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow, I have always been torn in this issue. I am a follower of Jesus and have been for a while now. I've known many people in my life, homosexuals included. I believe that I am the biggest sinner that I know. I know what I have and have not done. It's a process and I totally understand where everyone is coming from. I love that I live in America where everyone can speak their mind and ask questions. I usually shy away from speaking my mind because of the fear of making others angry or hurting them, oh and I am afraid of being wrong too :) I do believe in what the bible says about all being separated from God because of sin. It would be impossible to find a person to lead a church who was without sin. So, lets let Jesus lead our Churches while we pray for our pastors that we have chosen, as they have a very difficult job.
Posted by chrish (anonymous) on August 21, 2009 at 4:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
harriet - God must get "pissed off" at a lot of churches. A simple query on Google will get you stories of churches sustaining damage from tornadoes. He must also hate the Southeast/Eastern parts of the United States because of the number of hurricanes they have. He must like MN better because we don't get as much widespread damage as those states do.
Ironically, just for fun, I did a Google search on churches damaged by tornadoes and got 327,000 results. When I substituted church with synagogue, I only got 12,400 results. So what does that tell you? We really are the Chosen People? God likes us better?
Give me a break.
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